Monday, June 19, 2017

MLM and an Angry Long YouTube Comment



Today's blog post is about a particularly long and ridiculous comment left on a YouTube video. The comment is a wonderful example of the successful propaganda brainwashing MLMs use on their adherents. The comment was left on this YouTube video below which has had a litany of comments from pro-MLMers.

The comment was left by a user with the handle "In Case You Were Wondering" which I will condense to (ICYWW). You may already be able to tell that this person is a bit full of themselves. Without further ado, here is the comment and my responses.

ICYWW said, "Here's a few things.
1. Are you getting paid to make this video? 2.What are your credentials? Why should people listen to you? 3. WHERE ARE THE FACTS AND ACTUAL PROOF???" 1. Getting paid is irrelevant. He is representing his own independent research and is not affiliated with a competitor. 2. You don't need credentials to do research and find out about MLM. There is plenty of information out there which can make you an expert. 3. The facts and proof is presented on his whiteboard and through his presentation. If you are looking for court cases or some sort of reference, then that is up to you to find on the internet. It is all there and easy to find through cursory searches on Google. ICYWW said, "Just because you speak eloquently and have a white board and you draw visuals does not make you QUALIFIED to speak about this. Half of your ratings are THUMBS DOWN. There's a fact for you. THAT is NOT GOOD. " I'm curious as to what would be considered "QUALIFIED" to speak about MLM. There isn't exactly a school or formal education you can receive. This is a bizarre statement. I would agree that the amount of "THUMBS DOWN" would be concerning if it wasn't for the fact that the amount of people that responded negatively were more than likely disgruntled "Distributors". Unfortunately there is no way to prove that, but there isn't really a reason for anyone other than people being financially affected to give it a bad review as his video is relatively objective. ICYWW said, "BRAINWASHING??? Did you ever come across people who specialized in hypnosis? have they ever locked the doors so people couldn't get out? Don't be an idiot. Everyone knows that this is not for everyone. TWO WORDS. BUSINESS and OWNER." Brainwashing is: make (someone) adopt radically different beliefs by using systematic and often forcible pressure.
Brainwashing doesn't have a direct correlation with hypnosis. I'm not sure why you made that weird leap.

Yes, they do lock the doors at certain meetings, and they also insist upon asking for bathroom breaks, not allowing outside food and drink, and to remain until the end. This is common procedure.

It isn't just "not for everyone", bur rather it isn't for mathematically anyone according to their income disclosure statements.

You are not a "Business Owner" if you join an MLM. You are a poorly paid contractor with a very limited range of independence. You are really a cult adherent that is paying a bunch of money for the opportunity to belong to the group and bring in more adherents.

ICYWW said, "
You have to treat like a BUSINESS and you're the OWNER." I don't even know what that means when it relates to MLM. MLMs need to do a better job of qualifying new "Distributors" and taking responsibility for the outrageous failure rates. It isn't all about blaming the victims if 95-99+% of all "Distributors" across all MLMs fail or make less than minimum wage. That is the responsibility of the MLM. ICYWW said, "It's NETWORK marketing, not NET WELFARE marketing. " Sounds catchy, but this sentence is worth as much as bovine excrement (BS). Also, "Network Marketing" (Synonym for MLM) will more than likely wind you up on Welfare to fund your habit. ICYWW said, "I'm here to go from the beginning of your video to the end. Don't take it personal [sic], but you were never properly educated on legitimate MLM. I've done more research in a week than most people in my entire company did in 3 years. The difference is, I wish I could just jump in without being so analytical. But it's because of people like YOU who spoil it. " "Legitimate MLM" has never been proven to date. That is a challenge that I will issue to all MLMers. If they can prove that the majority of the money is made by selling products to customers instead of "end users", then I will take back this statement. I would say you need to work on your research skills. So far I haven't seen any analysis. All you have done is regurgitate memes created by MLM apologists. ICYWW said, "Without a doubt, you are navigating off of what everyone says. people [sic] who don't know anything more than what their family or friends say. THIS is never a good way to navigate in life. in [sic] school, you learn from people who know more than you, not people who always ask when they are going to ever use the knowledge they learned for the future. " I would beg to differ and say that you are the one "Navigating off of what everyone says". The rest of this statement is more weird fluff that means nothing or is irrelevant. Stick with more specific examples pertaining to MLM and not weird tangents. ICYWW said, "1. you say that you cannot believe that pyramid structures even exist.

1. ANSWER: How do you get paid? by someone in top of a corporate business structure, the CEO. PLUS, If they favor other people over you, you won't get the chance to move up. as a sales Two, you are your own boss, just like Uber. except with uber, unless you create your own LLC, you cannot hire other drivers." I'm not sure where you are trying to go with this. Pyramid structures in corporations, LLC's, businesses, and any other legal structure are legitimate. However, MLM pyramid structure is not because the method of earning income is through the distribution of dollars from new recruits being paid upwards through pay-to-play initial packages and monthly subscriptions. There are little to no actual sales outside of the organization generating money. If you are trying to suggest that everything is shaped like a pyramid therefore they are all illegal, then that is a common fallacy that has been thoroughly debunked. Here is a basic kindergarten level example. If milk is a liquid, and soda is a liquid, can we say that milk and soda are the same? This is the same type of logic you are trying to apply to MLM and legitimate businesses and it is horribly flawed. ICYWW said, "2. They put bells and whistles around it 2. Answer: I hope you never ever come up with a business idea and have people trash it because they think you're a salesman. God forbid THAT ever happens. What you come up with could actually be a great idea. See the problem?" This is a crazy tangent that has nothing to do with the video or MLM. This is just words for the sake of words. ICYWW said, "PEOPLE SPEND MORE ON THEIR FANCY PHONES AND CAR LOANS THAN ACTUALLY GETTING A USEFUL PRODUCT. " This is another unnecessary tangent. More words for the sake of words. ICYWW said, "My car salesman gypt me. is HE a part of a scheme???" Huh? I think your brain is failing you. Where are you going with these statements and what does this have to do with MLM? ICYWW said, "3. No need to be a part of a pyramid scheme to use a shopping portal. 3. ANSWER: Have you EVER shopped online??? who are you benefiting? yes. the CEO of the company. " Again, this has NOTHING to do with the video or MLM. This only further proves your inability to focus on important information and your inability to conduct research well. ICYWW said, "4. I can't believe I have to waste time out of my day to tear this whole video apart. I'm sorry, but you're ignorant. Any CEO first had to hire a team UNDER them to benefit, and not a very high spectrum of people can ever benefit in a corporate business structure. Pyramids are in EVERY business. only in MLM can you have a more wider [sic] spectrum of people be able to benefit. Also, it's NOT the person who came in sooner that benefits. It's if he is first SUCCESSFUL in getting his team together and selling a high volume of their product. I've seen people only be in for a few weeks already make more than their sponsor. " Well you don't have to waste your time and you didn't tear this video apart. The only person that is ignorant is you, and you have done nothing to support MLM. Please refer to the previous paragraph I made about your claim, "Pyramids are in EVERY business" and how that is flawed logic. That is completely incorrect. In MLM over 95-99+% of people fail. There is no other business model on the planet with those kinds of failure rates. It is absolutely the person who came in sooner that benefits. I don't believe that you have seen anyone actually be successful in MLM other than your role models preaching on stage. I'm guessing you have never seen an actual tax record indicating they made a large sum of money through the MLM. ICYWW said, "THE PROBLEM: Not a lot of people realise that once they join, they are sole proprietors. They own their own business. They are in charge of their success. THIS IS NOT EASY!" Again, you are not a "sole proprietor" or an "owner" or a "CEO". You are a lousy contractor that makes a dismal return on sales (if you can even sell anything). Most MLMs preach it is EXTREMELY easy when pitching this business. As long as you can follow your upline's instruction and duplicate, then you can win! ICYWW said, "Let me give you the breakdown, Genious. 2% of people in this country own the most wealth. Marc Zuckerburg had us pass around Facebook, but you didn't see us getting paid. 10% of America actually own businesses. The 90% never wanna put the work in or are happy with their lives the way they are. 22% of people in MLM companies are the ones making money, and out of that 22%, not everyone even earns a livable wage. Why? Because people walk into it like you do. They hear it's EASY MONEY. Well let me tell ya, IT AIN'T EASY. So it really isn't too good to be true. It really isn't a scheme. It takes WORK. But you were probably misinformed. I mean, even some Uber drivers can taint the rest of the company. " First part of this paragraph is another tangent. Where did you get this random 22% of people in MLM make money statistic? Normally I have seen it is much lower. Even with that statistic EVERY other business opportunity is better, and the fact that you said an even smaller percentage make a "livable wage" proves how terrible this opportunity actually is. The last part of the paragraph is also an irrelevant tangent. We aren't talking about UBER, and the opportunity that is presented is always acted out as an easy way to make income. ***If you made it this far, Congratulations! It is starting to wind down!*** ICYWW said, "I stopped numbering my points because it's so pointless at this point. Just like Uber, by the time EVERYONE heard about it, no one could make money, but you don't see ANYONE complaining! Actually, that's a lie. Just look on any Uber Facebook page. My point is, WITH EVERY BUSINESS THAT HAS EVER EXISTED, BY THE TIME IT BECAME A HOUSEHOLD NAME, YOU HAVE TO BEGIN FROM THE BOTTOM!!! Entry level employee. like for a grocery store, by the time it becomes mainstream, you have to start from the beginning. The bottom. There are ALWAYS going to be people at the bottom of a pyramid. 10 cashiers, maybe 5 managers, 2 directors, and 1 CEO. End of story! " A lot more pointless words, and I'm really not sure why Uber is such an important comparison. It has NOTHING to do with ANYTHING related to your points or to MLM as a whole. Your point about businesses becoming "Household names" is more bizarre and unnecessary words. Ugh, back to the erroneous pyramid shape fallacy for a 3rd time. We can see you have an issue with repetition and filibustering. ICYWW said, "What makes MLM so great is you depend on others success. They HAVE to be successful in order for you to be. Do you see it as wrong if someone recognizes a good business idea and runs with it, and takes other people with them to the top? But what happens after a while? that's right, other people like yourself come in and trash it by saying it's not fair. You've obviously never been a part of or ever owned a business!" No! Wrong! That is what makes MLM criminal! You rely on your downline's dollars to give you a paycheck and that is not "great". I would venture to say you have never been involved in a legitimate business. You have gotten everything wrong in this last paragraph, and you have proven why MLM is bad! ICYWW said, "This is hilarious. they're gonna tell me how good it is. Of course! They found success in it. While others spend thousands of dollars in student loans, paying the education system scheme and working a 9 to 5 for half their lives to pay it back, all we have to do is be good at selling our product! To people who WANT it of course. I don't have to have anyone on my team to be successful in MLM. We never benefit off reps. EVER. The only way we do is if they are good at getting members. two things. MEMBERS and REPS. The two are DIFFERENT. Unless it is an ILLEGAL company who only hire reps. THEN and ONLY THEN can I agree with you." Ugh, the other typical line, "If you aren't in MLM, then you must be a broke 9-5 job working loser!" MLM does not actually sell a product and they use the verbiage "end user" to skate the boundaries of the law. Very VERY few people want MLM products because they are overpriced generic versions of the same products available in stores. It is very easy to do price comparisons, and you can look at my other blog post to see I have done some math for you ( You always benefit off of reps. That is a complete and utter lie. All MLMs are focused on recruiting as the main source of generating income because they are founded on the principle of "Hiring" customers and giving them the title of "Distributor", but they are only taught to go find more "Distributors" that are actually customers. Then they take part of the dollars spent by each "Distributor" (customer) and distribute it upward. ICYWW said, "Companies who either have no product or they have an overpriced product, are companies who only make money from hiring more reps. THAT is an ILLEGAL company. " BOOM! Nailed it! That is EVERY MLM that has EVER existed. This is the "Aha!" moment. ICYWW said, "Being in an MLM myself, I accept the fact that
1. These people know more than me and have been in longer than me. They obviously make more than me. 2. I only benefit if my team sales volume is good. 3. The people I let in to be reps can make MORE than me just by being BETTER than me. It'll realistically take longer for me if I'm not good to begin with. But I get the opportunity to let in people who 1. might be better than me 2. NEVER would've realized their potential if I NEVER showed them!" If the training is good, then it shouldn't matter if someone has been in longer. If you are hired for the same position as someone else, then you should be making the same wage. This part "2.", again, is a clever way to say it is a pyramid scheme. While it is technically possible, it is improbably that someone below will make more money since the person above gets a percentage of all their sales. That is the essence of the pyramid. The last part is just programmed "Rah Rah" BS. You don't want people below you to be better because every time they get someone under them that means the market share shrinks. Every time you bring someone in, you are introducing a new competitor. ICYWW said, "This is too funny. Let me use TV marketing for example. They are CONVINCING MILLIONS to buy their product, and the product doesn't even have to be quality to be on TV! I personally think that is worse. If you ever come across MLM with a crappy product, then I wouldn't even join it. Too much to worry about, especially if it folds. Weight loss products, beauty care, and Body building products eventually all go to the wayside. However, if you work for a MLM that ACTUALLY benefits people long term and ACTUALLY benefits a higher spectrum of workers, it's golden."

Your example is flawed again because they are selling an actual product and not an opportunity. The quality of the product doesn't technically matter if they are selling it to a customer, but they will quickly go out of business if they don't have something desirable at a good price point. All MLMs have a "Crappy" product, because they are all products that have already been created by other companies at cheaper prices. Your last statement has never happened and it never will. ICYWW said, "MY company sells memberships. You do not deserve to know so it's by request only. Because if everyone knew, no one would be interested. Like let me go tell my GF everything I'll do for her up front. She would leave me! Because there's no surprise after that. No wonder. "
This makes no sense, has no relevance to MLM, and is completely asinine. Thanks for the waste of words. ICYWW said, "LET'S GET THIS STRAIGHT. You aren't talking about EVERY NETWORK marketing company out there. You are speaking for the ones that are NOT legitimate. " At this point, again, EVERY MLM has failed to prove legitimacy (Pampered Chef is the closest). If you don't want to share which MLM you are a part of, probably for fear of it being proven to be fraudulent, then that is fine, but it only helps my case. The onus is on you to prove that there is a reputable, legitimate MLM. ICYWW said, "NO ONE in my company gets paid to speak! They get paid from the work they put in. Or how much work did YOU put in to this video??? Are YOU getting paid??? Then you say you aren't sure how that works out??? There goes your credibility. I cannot believe people listen to you." ICYWW, you have done nothing to prove your point, you have gone on awful and bizarre tangents, you have wasted far too many words, and you are a premium example of brainwashing. You have spewed out a bunch of propaganda you heard at a seminar, and you have helped to show what happens when people join these companies. Your fervor in this response mixed with the time you put into it shows there is something strange happening. You have gone from being an avid member of the MLM to a fully indoctrinated psychopath.


  1. Funny how in his first point he is demanding facts and actual proof. I'd like some actual proof that his diamond makes whatever amount of money he claims to make each month or that his diamond pays cash for everything or whatever other claims that diamonds make when on stage.

    It sounds like this dude used all the lines directly from the MLM playbook. It's actually quite entertaining.

    1. Joe,

      This guy was such a bad troll. He tried to use this outrageously long post to "Beat the Will" out of the opposition with a filibustering tirade. The problem is there really isn't much to respond to since most of it is irrational tangents.

      The best part about the whole spiel is the way he understands MLM is illegal but has a certain level of cognitive dissonance making the final connection based on his involvement. The fact that he could readily identify what makes MLM bad and still be involved is proof of effective brainwashing.

  2. I'm pretty sure ICYWW works for Amway, probably in one of the freakier LOS subsystems like Network. Everything about his rant suggests Amway brainwashing.

    1. Anonymous,

      According to him, he works for a "Travel MLM". I have seen this a few times, including Zahner actually, where they choose to hold back the name of their MLM. There is really only one "Travel MLM" and that is World Ventures, but they do have other names such as "Dream Trips" and something else.

      Lazymanandmoney did a great write up about "World Ventures", and the basic premise is, invest in a pre-planned vacation package and when you get 3 others to join in, then you get your vacation for free. The trick is the limited options you have, because World Ventures buys out the vacations very cheaply since they only choose the ones that aren't selling, and then they sell them to their "Distributors" for full price. There are some other shenanigans that make the scheme even worse, but you get the idea.

      "Travel MLMs", such as World Ventures, have been around for a while now and they are some of the worst culprits for preying on naive people when it comes to travel. They offer the absolute worst value for the vacation packages they sell, for the most part, and it is a blatant pyramid for getting free trips.

  3. I enjoyed over read your blog post. Your blog have nice information,
    I got good ideas from this amazing blog.

    gclub online

    1. Thank you Kimlay! I'm glad this blog has helped you!